In Reply to: My 2 bits on knowing and doing the will of God: (sm) posted by Shawn on December 02, 2010 at 20:29:18:
: Estelle says: I think of it as God being the teacher and we being the students. God's ways ARE higher than our way, His thoughts ARE higher than our thoughts.
: Shawn says: If there is a God who has ways and thoughts, and they are higher than ours, then we as humans are only able to interpret those ways and thoughts according to our own limitations- IOW, we are limited and apt to MISinterpret, being subject to either our own comprehension and perception, or to the level of comprehension and perception of the person who is presenting it to us.
Estelle: This is just one of those things we'll hafta agree to disagree. : ) I personally believe the Bible is very much alive and well, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it is complete as is FOR what it is and wholly trust it. I don't view the the documented evidence the same way you do.
Yes, I am a KJB fanatic~~what else is new, right? lol. Call me limited, you'd be very right, because I'm very much a fallible human being. We ARE more apt to misinterpret, misunderstand, misapply, etc. But I do believe we are spirit beings, too. I do believe our humanness gets in the way of understanding the bible, and very often. However, that does not mean that we should not trust our spirit to discern what the bible says and put it into fleshly practice. I do not believe that God changes...we do. Just because humanity changes (through mutable societies) and chooses to go away from what the Bible teaches (speaking only as a Christian) does not mean that believers of the Bible need to, also.
: One might say that the Bible is infallible--but, it has been determined and documented that the Bible we know and love and to which we have access has been compromised and portions of it lost, MIStranslated, etc... The Word is supposed to be alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword...... Actually, TTYTT, I believe that "Word" to be the Universe/God/Goddess/Cosmos/Eternal Truth/Enlightenment.....I do believe that Biblical (and other) scriptures can and should be used to enhance one's experience of seeking Truth-- however, I do NOT believe one should rely on it wholly. Our minds are fallible. The mood and attitude and degree of knowledge we have is subject to change and growth or lack thereof. What is presented to us as true doctrine might apply at one time in our lives, but there's a huge chance that we will grow or move away or discard for whatever reason that doctrine and adopt something more useful to us.
: Estelle says: However, which direction do we go AS we are learning His Word or feeling something from our spirit? Are we at least trying to go in the same direction as God is (even when we may not quite understand the whys about it)?
: Shawn says: See above. And God isn't supposed to be moving in a direction, if I've read my Bible correctly.
Estelle: God may not be moving in the same sense we use move or direction, but God and sin do not mix. Sin moves us in a direction opposite of God (away from God). In my rush to say this, I guess I didn't take into consideration perspective, so presented human-centeredness rather than God-centeredness, which is not entirely accurate, as you so duly noted.
: Estelle says: Or are we taking what we learn and going where God clearly does not want us to go? What is our desire in life? Is it to do God's Will or run away from it?
: Shawn says: You're putting too much of a personality on God, IMO. We have within us the will to do what will make a good cause and promote happiness for ourselves or others, or do what has the opposite effect. To claim "godliness" or to be following God's ways or will is too easily used as a crutch or an excuse. It's too subject to corruption and exclusivism. General Custer applied those principles at the wrong place and time to the wrong people and look where it got him. The first missionaries to the Hawaiian people did the same, and look what happened. Ego takes over all too often and someone claiming to follow and lead innocents along the path to God have wreaked too much havoc and destruction. Jim Jones, for instance. JMO.
Estelle: There's no argument from me about this. Ego often DOES take over an otherwise worthy plan.
: Estelle says: The Bible says we can have the mind of Christ. We may not know everything that Jesus knows, but what we need to know can help us go far.
: Shawn: Not necessarily. We can have good attitudes and "do unto others," and emulate Jesus Christ (or the Buddha, for that matter, or Mary Baker Eddy). We must be careful to not be too caught up in what might come off as pseudo-Christianity or self-righteousness. I'll be the first to tell you that I know I can come off as too uppity w/my idea-sharing zeal...I know, it's irritating as all hell, LOL! Sorry.
Estelle: Well, there is a difference b/t doing things from human pov and spiritual pov. Jesus tells us we need to be born again, and it's the SPIRITUL rebirth that better enables us to carry out God's will for humanity: Love Him and love others as ourselves. Jesus tells his disciples in Matthew that people who just do things in his name honor him w/ their mouths and outward affection, but their hearts are far from him. Looking back to before I became a Christian is what enables me to understand what he says here. Also, praise should not be coming from our own mouths anyway, and neither should we make a production about how we're serving him. (again, speaking strictly as a Christian~~I'm sure other religions have similar principles)
: Estelle says: Plus, we can spiritually know things independent of our intellect.
: Shawn says: I don't agree with that. I don't think we come partitioned that way...but it's just my thought.
Estelle: This is definitely an agree-to-disagree exchange here. : ) My comment comes strictly from my personal experience, and although I wish I could transfer that experience to you so you can understand where I'm coming from, I can't. : (
: Estelle says: Some things just are not explainable with logic and reasoning, but you know that you know what you know in your spirit.
: Shawn says: I agree with that, to a degree. But it's not entirely true that logically and reasonably one is unable to explain--it's a semantic issue again. I wholeheartedly agree that one can know what one can know- that is totally true.
Estelle: See above. : )
I know some things from a spiritual perspective that I cannot put into words. Now, perhaps I'm a bit of a dunce for not being able to put things into words b/c others can, but I do know more than I'm able to explain...call it a gut feeling that doesn't always make logical sense to me, I guess.
: Thanks, Estelle!
Estelle: You're welcome. And thank you, too!
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